Indifferent results and burning pain after icing for guitar tendonitis?

by Don
(Brisbane, Australia)

Hello Joshua,


After battling tendinitis for seven years, (ex-guitarist, and truck driver, both careers lost) I purchased your e-book on guitarist tendinitis.

Of course, I still suffer ongoing symptoms, so after beginning you icing protocol, incorporating the DH exercise, (sparingly done after reading your warning) I now find myself with nasty burning pain I have not experienced in over two years. far from happy!

Icing results in 'vascular constriction', constriction, of course meaning tightening, which must result in shortening of tissue... and I'm here to tell you, that spells PAIN... my own doctor has warned me that excessive icing will actually CAUSE its own problem with
neo-vascularization...

as mentioned, I have not had BURNING pain in over two years, yet after beginning the protocol, it has returned with a vengeance... I am really not the mood for starting over, after seven years of battling this malady... freezing, shrinking, and shortening, just does not make sense.... please respond, I am at my wit's end..

Don


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Joshua Answers:


Hi Don.


Let's investigate.

1. In gerneral, do you have cold hands and feet?

2. Historically if you have iced before with an ice pack or some such, have you had any issues with that?

3. Please describe when you have this burnign pain. During icing, after icing, etc? How long does it last?

4. Where exactly do you feel the burning pain?

5. Have you started the nutrition as suggested?

6. Briefly describe
for me your pre-ebook symptoms so I have an idea of your specific scenario. What hurts, how bad, when, what helps, what hurts, etc.


Yes cold creates constriction. But it also then causes the body to push in lots of new blood and nutrtion.

My guess is that either A. Your body isn't dealing well with the stress of the temporary constriction or B. With the flush of circulation in and out, you are all of a sudden feeling all the pain enhancing chemical that's been stuck in the tissue.

Or a combination of both.


Answer the above questions, that will give me a better idea or what's going on and thus can better comment on what to do next.





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Please reply using the comment link below. Do not submit a new submission to answer/reply, it's too hard for me to find where it's supposed to go.
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Joshua Tucker, B.A., C.M.T.
The Tendonitis Expert
www.TendonitisExpert.com
















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Comments for Indifferent results and burning pain after icing for guitar tendonitis?

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Feb 23, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		PART 2 - Tendonitis is a life sentence...(except that it's not Tendonitis)
by: Anonymous

Joshua,
firstly, wow, thank you for such a quick reply.
there must be a lot of people out there asking for your time, so thank you.

in reply to your questions;

1. Yes, my ex-wife used to hate my freezing hands and feet!! Ha ha

2. Have used ice packs in the past, and had just the usual red rash and numbness, but no lasting problems.

Reflex Sympathetic Distrophy...(if you read the Dr's hand out, this DX spells DOOM!!! for the poor victim..)

4. To give you a heads up, for the last few years I have been dealing with what was almost serious disability, complete inability to work, carefully working my way back with a programme which no doctor in the world even came close with helping me... I had to find it for myself...
only a few years ago, at 45 years of age I required constant care. Someone to raise a coffee cup to my lips, clean my house and even bathe and shave me.. suicide was never far away.. don't ever tell me "it couldn't have been that bad".. let me tell you friend, when you get this, as bad as I have it, the pain can be relentless 24 hours a day seven days a week... there is no such thing as sleep... after seven years, doctors often look at me with disdain and despise, believing only a malingerer looking to make money from a workplace or the government would carry this so far.... I was eventually sent to psychiatric care... Finally, suicide seemed my only option.... after months and months following doctors advise, finally contracting serious side-effects from their ill-advised drug campaign, of course, with basically zero improvement, I believe I was lucky my first suicide attempt failed.... to be honest, I really don't think my own family, because on the outside I appeared so able bodied, could believe I was so disabled...

5. I don't have the time to finish here, but when one's deep and creative passion (music) is taken away, then the almost God-given right to be able to work and make yourself a living and to feed yourself and your family is also taken away, it becomes hard to go on every day.

The ONLY things that have helped (not one single doctor) has been heavy eccentric weight exercises (surprise surprise) deep, aggressive, even bruising Graston Therapy (now, self applied) not once, not ever, has heavy eccentric weight training hurt me, I have been maintaining a lifestyle of "go carefully with everything"... which has seemed to work till now.... I feel humiliated, embarrassed, and ashamed to be called a man, when for all intents and purposes, I am so weak and frail.. (yet if you talk to my psych, it is all in my mind...) love those people..




Feb 23, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		PART 3 - Indifferent results and burning pain after icing for guitar tendonitis?
by: The Tendonitis Expert

Joshua Comments:

Yikes!

Ok, let's back away from the Tendonitis pain for a moment. I don't think that's your actual issue, as you've described.

I bet you a dollar that you are SEVERELY Vitamin D and Magnesium and Vitamin B12 deficient.

Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy and Complex Regional Pain Syndrome are a couple of the labels given to one of the MANY pain/problem scenario's that the medical world has no idea what it is, why it's there, or what to do about it.

I also bet you a dollar that you are Gluten Intolerant/Celiac Disease, which basically means when you eat wheat/gluten it trashes your body, and gives you Leaky Gut) which can make you malnourished by lowering your ability to absorb nutrients from your food.

Granted, this is just what you've said so far.

Seriously, there may be other things at play, but you HAVE to get your Vitamin D levels up, and Magnesium too.

Exercise and massage is great, but you have something happening at the systemic level.

I suggest that you talk to my Kerri, she's an expert at this kind of thing, and works with people with chronic pain/problem that the medical system has no idea what to do with.

Get her free ebook and read through it. Free Chronic Pain Relief ebook

(She's sitting across the table from me, and as we speak she is digging into the literature/current research on this.)

Seriously. Vitamin D and Magnesium (anything but oxide) and B12 (methylcobalamin not cyanocobalamin. Today.

More questions:

1. Did you ever get a Vitamin D level taken?

2. How's your digestion. Obviously your energy levels are low....

3. Say more about your all over pain. This isn't guitar tendonitis.

4. Have you ever had a broken bone/traumatic injury? That seems to be one cause of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome.

Answer the above and then....

More questions, more answers.


Feb 23, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Quick reply
by: Don

Firstly, I apologise for my rambling post! However, are you some kind of phsycic?? Incredible. Will give you more answers tonight.
Cheers, Don


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Joshua Comments:

Elementary, my dear Watson!

No, not psychic. When you see it over and over and over......(and aren't a doctor:).

It's really all Kerri, and Functional Medicine.

But now that I know what to look for....most chonic pain/problem/disease is really just not that mysterious.



Feb 23, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		PART 4 - interesting - Indifferent results and burning pain after icing for guitar tendonitis?
by: Anonymous

I have always had cold hands and feet

icing helps me

in fact I find my feet actually warm up not long after icing , and are warmer than they were before

but joshua are you saying that for SOME people who maybe have bad circulation ( I am assuming thats what cold hands and feet means?)....that maybe ice makes things more difficult , not having its usual circulation turnover effect..and maybe just self massage is a better option ?


because self massage ALSO gets blood and nutrition in ?..just maybe not as well as when its done TOGETHER with ice ?


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Joshua Comments:


Hey Don.

Good, your hands -should- get warmer after being cold.

Yes, some people's (Raynaud's syndrome)body's deal very poorly with the stress of cold. Get all sorts of bad reactions including increased pain.

This generally can be helped/alleviated with appropriate nutritional support.

For those folks, taking nutrition out of the conversation, then yes, self massage is a better option, as icing causes more bad than good.

Self massage creates circulation (and stretches/opens constricted tissue). Icing creates circulation. The more the merrier.

I prefer the benefits of doing both. But if one can only self massage, do it.


Feb 24, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		PART 5 - Elementary indeed - Indifferent results and burning pain after icing for guitar tendonitis?
by: Don

Elementary indeed... but if it is not double peer reviewed, apparently it does not exist in the medical world....:-(

but let's put a more positive spin on this, here are some facts for you....

initial and only injury was forearm tendinitis from excessive guitar practice. At the time music was my life, foolishly, I believed I could 'play through the pain'.. guess the result?

Also still try to earn a living, I ended up so badly injured, I could not even shave. After 12 months, doctors said tendinitis should have healed, it was then I got the CRP label, pushed out the door and told to attend a pain clinic!

Currently: after years of 'babying' my arms, more severe pain has appeared after beginning the protocol.

Last year, long-term, chronic stomach ulcer (H-Pylori) eventually diagnosed and successfully treated.

Yes! Wheat is my enemy!

Diet, in years past has been poor.

Underweight, 58 kg, 172cm tall

Current alcohol abuse/depression induced

Severe tinnitus

Memory, clumsy, confusion (not knowing what I walked into the kitchen for!)

Strange pains in different joints for no particular reason

Stiff neck, muscle wastage

Have begun injectable B12, magnesium oil (due to gut problem) and vitamin D (they say more than 40,000 IU is toxic?) I don't like getting out in the sun as I have already had two skin cancers cut out.

I am sure you are nodding your head already.. what do we do? Thanks


Feb 24, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		PART 6 - Indifferent results and burning pain after icing for guitar tendonitis?
by: The Tendonitis Expert

Joshua Comments:

Hey Don.

Even when info is peer reviewed etc, it can have an impossible time making it into the medical world....like Vitamin D.

Ok. Stop the icing until we get some nutrition in you, and focus on the self massage.


It's safe to say that, Tendonitis aside, you are severely malnourished.

- Strange pains in different joints for no reasons = Vitamin D deficiency

- memory, clumsy = Vitamin D deficiency

- tinnitis = potentially magnesium deficiency, research shows magnesium is very helpful with tinnitis issues

- Alchohol consumption = depletes Thiamine (Vit B1) and magnesium

- underweight, poor diet, wheat is enemy = Gluten Intolerant/Celiac disease and Leaky Gut.


- Magnesium oil, great. Also, supplement as described on this page: Magnesium Dosage


- You may want to drop the injectable B12, you can do the same thing in pill form. B12 Injections Not Necessary. Get these or something similar B12 product

- 40,000 i.u.'s is not toxic. You're only toxic if your level is too high. You could take a million and it wouldn't hurt you (unless you took a million a day for a month or more, not recommended).

I take 125k - 350k i.u.'s once a month, depending on the time of year.

I bet your Vitamin D level is SERIOUSLY low. Get your level checked so you'll know. Then take something like 300,000 i.u.'s per day for two days to get your levels up (take with magnesium as mag is required to activate Vit D3).

You HAVE to get off ALL gluten for two months. You have to heal that Leaky Gut and STAY off gluten.

If you want to start feeling better, that is.

And that's about as much as I can do for you on the systemic/health level, you'll want to work with Kerri for a surefire plan of attack. But if you start with what I've said, that will go a LONG way.


Feb 24, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Thank you, this is so interesting
by: Don

Joshua,
you are a dead set legend. I am just grateful there are people like yourself in the world who offer their time and advice with sites such as yours.

not ONCE have I been told anything in such detail by my care team.

I am going to follow through on your suggestions, we'll keep you posted.

many thanks, Don


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Joshua Comments:

You're welcome Don!

I'm glad Kerri and I can help.

And yeah, when you start looking into it, it's CRAZY how far behind the learning curve doctors are, along with the rest of the medical industry are.

That whole 'It's just in your head' thing from doctors should be criminal.



Mar 08, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		update
by: don

Hi
Sad update, last Friday it was training with my PT, we were doing is eccentric weight training, I had been on 5 kg for months and months, going well, the exercises had never caused the problems in the past, we stepped up to 6 kg and bam!

No rupture, just monstrous pain, five years of "healing" down the drain.. if anyone has had this injury, they will also be aware of the dreadful anxiety that comes with it.

Back to using voice recognition software..

my question is, is the protocol safe at such an acute stage? The pain is building daily like a firestorm, even know I am reducing all of my activities immediately.... please help.. thanks


----


Joshua Comments:

Hmm, that's not good.

Yes, the protocol is safe for acute pain. Go all out with countering the inflammation response.

Also, I suspect you need to hit the nutrition HARD.

It's possible that you did actually rip and tear something, but if that's the case, I'm curious why your connective tissue is so weak as to allow a rip and tear injury from one more kg.


SOMETHING isn't happy though.

And now that it's in super acute phase, you need to deal with it intensively. The more you do, the sooner the pain will dial down.


Mar 10, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		New update
by: don

Hi Joshua,
just thought I'll let you know how things are at this point in time.

currently off work, (last time this happened, it ended up being two years!)

Now that I'm a bit more "educated", this is where I am now at. The injury that happened at training, was more like "I have done this plenty of times before, but THAT just didn't feel right."

it took two days (doms?) but I was already aware of what was to come... I thought I'd gotten away with it, but you may agree with this description, as the days passed, my arms were gradually getting tighter and tighter, having been here before, I was confused as to why my body didn't stop where it was several days ago.

Yet the tightening continues... I'm feeling bad pain and tightness in areas of my arms and hands that I know I DID NOT INJURE.. there was nowhere near this tightness 24 hours after I did it, so why won't my body stop tightening down?

You are my only hope, I have been icing, some times every 10 minutes the last 4 days, you can't help but feel it is adding to the tightness, yet it truly dulls the pain.. taking massive doses of vitamin D and the b12 (very hard to get Methyl in this country for some reason?)

Comments?

Thank you


----


Joshua Comments:

Hi Don.

Thanks for the details. That helps.


1. Whether you 'injured' it or not, the nervous system thinks there is a problem so it is TIGHTNENING everything up to guard and protect you (even if it makes things worse). Potentially a nutritional issue is making that worse.

The more freaked out your nervous system is, the tighter it's going to make things.

And remember, the whole structure is affected. So you're now feel pain in areas you aren't used to feeling it, but that have long been affected.


2. Icing helps the pain, great. But it's tightening things up?

Try alternanting hot/cold/hot. OR just cold/hot. Usually I say always finish on cold, but let's try finishing on hot with you, to help your body get new blood to the area, which can/may/should help counter the body's tightnening response.


3. Are you supplementing with Magnesium?


4. How much Vitamin D are you actually taking? Did you ever get a level taken?


5. B12, Methylcobalamin is less common because it is more expensive that cyanocobalamin. And, it's much more effective so worth searching for.



Mar 12, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Update
by: don

New update,
thank you for your ongoing help.

I have been taking 5000 i.u.'s vitamin D3, 1000 mg magnesium, as well as magnesium oil. My initial dose of vitamin D3, I took the whole bottle!

Trying to feed myself as well as I can given the circumstances.

My downward spiral is beginning to turn into a plunge. Having given myself a "real injury", I am now finding the minor continual movement of just living day to day, or trying to drive the car, when I go to bed of the night, feeling more and more serious pain creeping in, I can now only sleep several hours at a time.

Hot and cold is helping, but at this point in time, I am beginning to believe ongoing movement, and massage, could be compounding things, may be, adding insult to injury?

This is the exact same scenario went through years ago, when your "process of inflammation", but accompanying a real injury, got so bad, I ended up on disability, or I could do was sit in a chair all day, and not move, then dread going to bed of a night-time, when I would often experienced some of my worst pain.

One thing I do know to sure, I'm certain I have a nasty and extremely fragile injury to already frayed tissue.

After seven years, my condition was not perfect, but very manageable, then I have to go and push the envelope just that little bit too far. Here we are back at the beginning.

It is almost perversely amusing at how a horrific depression nearly ALWAYS accompanies this malady.

You must be getting tired of my rants, but I'm in just such a bad place right now.

Thanks


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Joshua Comments:

Hey Don.

No worries, rant away. Pain takes all the fun out of everything, I certainly understand.

That's great you've jumped on the Vit D3 and Magnesium.

I will say, at this point, that i again HIGHLY suggest that you go off ALL gluten for 2 months (possibly corn, and/or dairy, if either of those give you problems).

When manual therapy and nutrients don't help at all, that pretty much leaves the weird pain side effects that Gluten Intolerance can produce.

It's worth it to try it out for two months.




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